I met Cleo at the Beltane Fire Festival in Edinburgh, Scotland. We met because we were both gay solo travelers looking for housing. Cleo’s couchsurfing profile said he was a witch and I wanted to know about his experience so he agreed to meet me at a coffee shop before the festival. I didn't have a moment to get any photos of Cleo but luckily I was able to sit down and hear some stories. He told me about his role in leading an underground movement of Chinese speaking witches.
What does that mean to be a witch?
A witch is somebody who has relationships with the unseen and invisible world. For witches it's difficult to define because each witch has their own definition of who she is. But to put it simply, a witch is someone who practices witchcraft.
Don’t confuse witches from the religion Wicca. Wicca is a modern invented religion, based on witch lore and ancient European practices. We believe in the gods, the cycles of nature and love.
Does wicca say anything explicitly about sexuality?
Today, this Beltane festival we are going to, is entirely based on sexuality. It's about the divine union between the great god and great goddess. It's a celebration of fertility, abundance and the creation of love.
I saw pictures of the festival online and a lot of people were nude. Is that part of the celebration of witchcraft, nudity?
Yes. Being nude is a sign of liberation. Today, it's too cold to do that. But this festival is more public and open. So I'm not sure if it's an option to be nude and if we are allowed to do that.
What drove you to witchcraft?
I had chronic depression but I started drinking herbs, practicing magic, and praying more to the earth and great goddess. Afterwards, I came to realize that I'm not depressed. Sometimes people can really identify with their feelings, emotions and conditions and that can be very limiting and disempowering. But through spiritual exercises and activities, I found different ways of seeing things. Witchcraft was an opportunity to jump out from where I was before, and I saw the world in a different way.
What religion does your family follow? Are they also Wiccian?
No, they are conservative, traditional, Chinese people who follow Folk Taoism. When I was a child my father told me not to get involved in witchcraft because, according to him, witchcraft only brings misfortune.
I am guessing that was not true, the misfortune?
Haha yes of course! I was feeling that I did not have a future and that everything was set out for me. I was meant to study hard, find a job and be like everybody. I was confined.
To me, witchcraft is liberation. I want to share this passage from Starhopper with you. She said, "Witchcraft is the act of revolution. To find the emperor is to find those creeks, that opens to the mysteries of the world"
I feel kind of, I feel kind of awkward because I have been oversharing you can speak more about yourself if you want.
I can tell you about my church growing up. We believed in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. And if you can speak in tongues, that means God has anointed you. A lot of people fell into a deep depression because they could not speak in tongues. I think it was just the way their mouth was shaped; they just could not make those sounds.
Speaking in tongues is quite witchy. When you’re practicing rituals it’s a good sign to fall into a trance and speak in what you call, tongues. That's what I did during my six month retreat to connect with my angel.
It's like a sensation with different manifestations. For some people it will be dancing or shaking your body but for others it's speaking in tongues.
There are some people who are hurt by Christianity and they hold this resentment. Personally, I'm quite open, and I think every religion has its own truths and lessons. I can take Christianity as it is, but I'm not going to accept its whole doctrines. I also use Bible stuff in my practice.
Bible stuff? What kind of bible stuff do you use in your practice?
Psalms. There is this book called “Power of the Psalms” that shows witches how to use Psalms in magic. Sometimes lighting a candle and reading a verse over the candle can bring about change. I really liked Psalms. I'm not sure why, maybe because I'm into poetry.
In hoodoo, do you know about that? You should. It’s American folk magic which combines protestantism and traditional African magic. They use herbs and Psalms too.
Have you experienced a miracle before?
You might find me crazy after this story. I lived in France with my friends and we had this dog. I can show you his picture. And one day the dog was sick, he couldn't move at all for an entire night, almost as if he was paralyzed. Everyone was worried because in the morning he still could not move. So I prayed for him and when I did, I felt something move. I put my hands on the dog and he moved. I knew I was a witch then.
Do you need to be in community with other witches?
Yeah, we are community animals, but for witches it is more problematic. Witches are different and more individualistic. Sometimes it can be really hard for witches to make communities. So I started one. A Taiwanese Chinese-speaking witch group about a year ago. We meet on facebook and share spiritual practices. One of my dreams is to organize a festival in Taiwan.
He pulls out his phone and shows me the group's page. The only thing I can read and understand is that the facebook group had over 700 people in it.
If you want to organize a meetup in China or Taiwan for witches, what are the steps you have to go through to start?
In China it will be problematic. In China, there's a lot of restrictions on religions and so-called “feudo-superstitions” which are banned. In Taiwan you can do whatever you want. I just need to fundraise. After fundraising, I will find a place and people will come, like a normal convention. So it's not really about spirituality or anything. It's just about marketing.